Curse

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

adhered to my logic? Do you make a habit to overexaggerate a statement ignoring the context of it?

Since I have to quote myself

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If I have 1 build that makes me perform my role perfectly I don't need 15 great builds, period.

Maybe it's the wording that's getting at you. If you can perform your role with 1 build perfectly why would you need 15 ways of attacking that role that are only great? You wouldn't, the perfect build wouldn't need variation. This sentence isn't meant to say that there is a perfect build, but show example to where there is no need for 15 different builds. On a lesser scale if you have a great build, there may be multiple other builds that can come in from the same role but they aren't as great, so you don't need to mention them unless there is some niche role that they fulfill. These niche roles don't get mentioned on PvX for the Assassin general section though.

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If that one build of mine has say 3 optional slots, and I just change 3 out of 5 skills depending on the situation, why do I need 15 great or Meta builds? I don't.

If you have a set that works, like Jagged, Fox, Deathblossom, and then you can change 3 out of the remaining 5 skills based on the situation then where does the need for variation come from, if the variation/coverage you can get from your 3 optional slots is sufficient?

back to you-

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Because as you say, if a class is performing its role, why is there a need for any variation? I'm sure that having 10 professions when 5 would be enough, or hundreds of skills that aren't all equivalent is just fluff and not meant to enable differentiated gameplay.

Many skills are just fluff, extremely situational, or just ineffective or inferior to a similar option that fulfills the same purpose better.
Variation that adds something is good, variation just to say you have variation is hardly noteworthy. If 1 skill could be really effective, but it's only effective in very few situations like maybe 1 or 3 quests, your not going to see that skill pop-up on pvx in the general section.

A need for variation comes when there is something you want to do and you cannot get it with what you have.
If your looking for a type of playstyle and the 5 professions don't give it to you, maybe the 6th or 7th profession has your playstyle. For that purpose then then the variation matters because it gives you something you may not have.

In the same situation with builds. Having 15 great builds, and 20 good builds matters if say the 1 meta build doesn't have what you need.
If the meta build is great for damage, and control, and it's got condition removal, and is great for most situatioons, but in some other situations it is better to run this 1 great build that has less damage, same amount of control, no condition removal, but it's got hex removal and anti-block then the variation is good again as if you stayed in your 1 meta build you'd be missing out. If the one build is going to fulfill most situations and there isn't significant interest in finding a build that can clear certain area's faster those builds aren't going to pop up. It's going to be the one build.

It feels like we are bickering simply for the sake of doing so.
If you have 1 build that fulfills the purpose of your profession to a T and that 1 build for instance is customizable to give you some room to tweak a few things for your needs, why do you need 15 great builds that exist for the same goal if even the way they achieve that goal is inferior? It's wonderful to have a lot of different options if all those options are good and do things differently, but if they're actually all similar they'll probably be condensed into one build.

The wiki can support the claim of a profession having issues, but it doesn't prove it.

Kaleban · Mar 19, 2011, 11:11 PM // 23:11

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

snip

So just to clarify, you're cool with a profession having one single build that makes it effective at its intended job, but NO other builds for anything else?

So Para is fine cause it has Imbagon. Assuming of course that this is its sole function, and nothing else.

Sin is BETTER than fine cause it has SF-Tank and 1 Dagger build to kill everything.

Why'd we get the Mez update I wonder when they were so good at rupting things? Or the Derv update when ZV/skill spam was fine at slaughtering things?

OBVIOUSLY ANet does not agree with your logic, nor game design philosophy. I can see it changing in GW2 with the new single classes, and skill system dependent on weapon setups and such, it seems that the sequel is greatly paring down options to make balancing easier.

However, you may have noticed this ISN'T GW2.

As to the type and amount of builds on PvX, your're again missing the point. Build variety for professions generally revolves around its function, such as a Warrior doing DPS. A decent number in each category indicates good design and INTERNAL balance to the class. A lack thereof indicates imbalance, as indicated by the prevalence of Sin SF TANKs, or the sole Imbagon and E/Mo Prot style builds. I'm not sure how else to explain what should be perfectly obvious, so there you go.

One last thing, evidence supports a hypothesis. If PvX supports the claim, then it is indeed proof, unless you have some alternate definition for such.

ensoriki · Mar 19, 2011, 11:39 PM // 23:39

If the damage reduction was the only role Paragons were designed to be able to fulfill the Imbagon would be fine, but that's not the only role they were designed to be able to fulfill.
Shadow form tanks aren't even part of the assassin concept when I bought Factions they did not tell me "The assassin is capable of standing in the middle of 60 enemies and not feel a thing".

The Dervish update made dervishes feel like they were described to be. I didn't play a mesmer before the Mesmer update, not my cup of tea, but from what I can recall, they weren't holding their weight in PvE. The update by the lack of complaints now compared to then successfully made them play as they were described. When I play my mesmer now, it feels like a mesmer and it's efficient as well.

If you make a profession I would assume you make that profession because you liked how you were told they were going to play. If they have 1 build that plays that way you were told they too it may not able to infinetly hold your attention, but it is fine that it plays that way. Anything extra on that is gravy. It should be obvious, if your profession can do possible roles, and your build is perfect at one of those roles, you don't need your profession to have another build to play that same role. since you have 3 roles, you should ideally have 2 more builds, if those other 2 builds are perfect you don't need anything more if they're not, then you need some more build options to make up for that imperfection.

Yes it's fun to have a whole bunch of different skill selection, but in terms of the "health" of a profession as you so put it, if a profession has 3 roles it was designed able to play, and it has 3 builds 1 perfect for each role, it doesn't need anything else. It's completely healthy, it's great at everything it was designed to do. Now it may be boring to run those builds forever, but that doesn't make the class itself unhealthy.

I don't see the area where my view conflicts with Anets. The dervish was updated to feel like it's concept while able to fulfill it's roles. The Dervish builds doesn't perfectly fulfill it's role, it's not supposed to, neither does the assassin, but if it did you wouldn't need any other builds.

Perhaps my use of language differs. When you prove something it is now objective truth. When you are supporting something, you are giving credibility to the idea that it is objective truth. If I want to prove you took something out of the cookie jar, I show a video tape of you doing it. If I want to support my claim that you took something out of the jar, I say that you were the last person in the room with the jar.

melissa b · Mar 20, 2011, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Reworking classes is great. I do have a question though. Can any one confirm if the live team stated there would be no dervish sized updates again? Thus this idea has no chance.

Swingline · Mar 20, 2011, 05:23 AM // 05:23

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'm amazed people tell other to "look at the state of the game" and then spit on the idea of a Sin re-work.

Do any of you even understand how the game works? Look at the PvE meta, and the prevalence of Sin TANKS. That right there should make it glaringly obvious that its a big problem.

Perhaps if Sin TANKS weren't so easy to pull off and readily available, it would require more teamwork and bring in less used professions to high end PvE.

A Sin rework to make them more.. well Assassin like and less flying brick like, would be better for the overall health of the game, and might open up newer and better playstyles for multiple classes that are now marginalized.

I would certainly like to see the Sin re-worked to be more of a teleporting glass cannon that relies on mobility and quick reflexes to survive, and less on skills like Shadow Form or Save Yourselves! to be of a value to the party.

What ANet could do would be to take away any method of doling out AoE damage on the Sin class, since its supposed to Assassinate not wtfpwn entire zones. Then as the OP suggested make recharges less and shadowstepping more prevalent, and I think that would fix the Sin class pretty much.

Sure, people say the Sin is already powerful, but I would say its powerful in the WRONG way, as in its not doing what the class concept claims. I would prefer Sins able to wtfpwn in seconds single targets like healers and elementalists, WITHOUT being able to decimate the area around them, and relying on compressed shadowsteps to enter and exit battle.

AoE should be the province of Elementalists.

I get what your saying but other professions have been forgotten while the sin has always been in the light. I /notsigned because it takes time to rework classes and Ele, Para and Rangers need love before the sin. The only rework sins really needs is in deadly arts and nerfing the armor in critical agility. Sins can do what ANet intended them to do and that's get in, kill something and get out. If you cant do that in high end pve you shouldn't be playing a sin.

Should SF be nerfed into oblivion? Yes. Will it? Probably not and I think people need to accept that. If ANet does decide to take SF out I will be thrilled but a large chunk of the player base may quit and less people in a MMO means less fun, and that's what I want out of a video game. I think you are also forgetting that SF is about half the reason sins main tank, a lot of it is earth skills and most of all Shroud of Distress. A good way to target sin tanks is nerf shroud. Without shroud sins wont be the all powerful tanks with their self heals plus block.

The whole point Im trying to make out is sins could use a rework in some areas but other classes deserve it more atm.

Showtime · Mar 20, 2011, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Sorry, but nothin, nada, ziltch anything except maybe a nerf for sins til other classes get their much needed changes.

/never will be signed
-the ranger, paragon, elementalist, etc...

Bright Star Shine · Mar 20, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Sorry I missed out on so much, but I was gone last night. But anyway, this is most likely gonna be my last post here, because I pretty much what I had to say, just gonna reply to this:

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

Okay, you're totally missing what I'm getting at here. What build do you suppose the two Sins in your pic were running? Critscythe? MS+DB? CritBarrage? DA Thrower? Or are they in fact dual tanking with SF?

Just so you know, that screenshot, that was me, I took that. I know what they were running. But this is high end PvE, record stuff, this is not what the OP was talking about. You can't compare high-end records to general PvE so your claim of ssins not having enough variety there is irrelevant to this thread.

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Again, you're missing the point. PvX may not be the repository of the secret uber builds, but its a site with aggregated build info that has been vetted by MANY MANY people and they work well. And the point is that PvX acts as a gauge of a professions build variety, and consequently how well it is designed and whether it fulfills a even and balanced role in the game. Which is why the Paragon needs a revamp pretty badly, as does the Ele in PvE at least.

Think of it as national polling data. Not every family has 2.3 kids (having 0.3 of a child isn't even physically possible) but its a good indication of the average.

Not gonna say it again. It's not because there is only 1 meta/great build on PvX does not mean it only has 1 great build that works. Most people are just too lazy and just copy paste their builds off there..

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Any Sin can do that with auto-attacks and enough buffs. In fact most melee classes can do that easily, my Derv and War can too. Does that mean that the Sin and War/Derv have the exact same build variety? No of course not, which is the whole point of the thread.

Nop, I didn't say that, my point was, my ssin is still pumping out a nice amount of damage, and as such doesn't really need a rework..

Because they have one build that is generally over-used to the exclusion of all others. As does the Assassin, although being melee is still more capable.

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Btw, I found your build in your quick uber Urgoz run:

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_Urgoz_Caster_Spike

Lol, you think we ran that? And that tactics? You think our record builds were on PvX? They weren't, also, the people that organized the run were the ones that created those builds. We only tweaked them a bit for records. Never compare records to general PvE, again..

Anyway, have fun, cya..

Kaleban · Mar 20, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Just so you know, that screenshot, that was me, I took that. I know what they were running. But this is high end PvE, record stuff, this is not what the OP was talking about. You can't compare high-end records to general PvE so your claim of ssins not having enough variety there is irrelevant to this thread.

Oh for pete's sake get over yourself. Records lol. You ran an end-game area, with two SF-TANKS which is exactly what the OP is discussing, reworking the Sin class so that its not pigeonholed into builds that weren't intended to be meta in the first place.

High end PvE is still PvE, and the skills that dominate there regardless of (lol) records or not are the SAME.

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Not gonna say it again. It's not because there is only 1 meta/great build on PvX does not mean it only has 1 great build that works. Most people are just too lazy and just copy paste their builds off there..

Hopefully I won't have to say it again, but the fewer the number of builds on aggregating websites indicates imbalance in the profession. 1 meta build may indicate the class is OP and not under, but the fact remains its not balanced right. If you're going to sit there and tell me that the Sin was intended to TANK the hardest HM content and that was its original purpose, then you must be completely oblivious to the game's design.

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Nop, I didn't say that, my point was, my ssin is still pumping out a nice amount of damage, and as such doesn't really need a rework..

Again, missing the point. A c-spacing Sin can also pump out respectable damage, as can many builds. The reason behind a skill re-work is to make the Sin actually play like a light fast-in, fast-out guerilla fighter, not a mystic tank immune to damage that a bunch of squishy Mesmers exploit.

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Lol, you think we ran that? And that tactics? You think our record builds were on PvX? They weren't, also, the people that organized the run were the ones that created those builds. We only tweaked them a bit for records. Never compare records to general PvE, again..

Or else what? Lol. You DID run that. A midline of Mesmers for damage and two Sin tanks. Oh sure, there may have been some tweaking here and there, but the basic concept remains the same. You relied on AoE armor ignoring caster damage and two Sin TANKS.

But all this arguing aside, just answer one simple question:

Do you believe the Assassin profession in the PvE Meta is operating "as intended?" That being, is the prevalence of Shadow Form Tanking supposed to be what the Assassin is good at?

All your current responses correspond to an answer in the affirmative, which explains your curious viewpoints.

Personally, I think if the OPs suggestions were reviewed at ANet, most especially the lower recharges on shadowstepping and a bit of compression in those skills, we'd probably see a greater diversity of builds.

Of course, professions like the Ele, Para and Ranger need love first and foremost as their PvE builds are sparse compared to others, but that's not what this thread was for. Its for a Sin re-work, which all logic would dictate is actually needed to make it play as it was intended.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 20, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Well, guess I'll have to multiquote again anyway..

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

Oh for pete's sake get over yourself. Records lol. You ran an end-game area, with two SF-TANKS which is exactly what the OP is discussing, reworking the Sin class so that its not pigeonholed into builds that weren't intended to be meta in the first place.

High end PvE is still PvE, and the skills that dominate there regardless of (lol) records or not are the SAME.

The only thing the OP said about SF is "change it so that you can't cast any spells under it". He barely discussed the skill, because his point was to revamp the ssin as an assassin, not a tank. Also, if SF wasn't intended to be, I'm pretty sure it would be changed by now. Well guess it was intended to be..

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Again, missing the point. A c-spacing Sin can also pump out respectable damage, as can many builds. The reason behind a skill re-work is to make the Sin actually play like a light fast-in, fast-out guerilla fighter, not a mystic tank immune to damage that a bunch of squishy Mesmers exploit.

I can still pull off your vision of "jump in, kill, jump out", with ease, I just don't, because my heroes are powerful enough to keep me alive and not make me die.

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Or else what? Lol. You DID run that. A midline of Mesmers for damage and two Sin tanks. Oh sure, there may have been some tweaking here and there, but the basic concept remains the same. You relied on AoE armor ignoring caster damage and two Sin TANKS.

Uhuh, basic concept is the same, performance, kind of different. You run that build, with the tactics posted on there and get an 8min, I dare you, but this is all besides the point, the only reason I brought that shit up was because I was being sarcastic on your comment of ever being been in DoA..

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Do you believe the Assassin profession in the PvE Meta is operating "as intended?" That being, is the prevalence of Shadow Form Tanking supposed to be what the Assassin is good at?

All your current responses correspond to an answer in the affirmative, which explains your curious viewpoints.

Well, the skill "Shadow Form" kind of indicates the assassin takes on the form of a shadow, with the goal of sneaking up to his enemy and killing it I guess, that's how it was originally created. The first one although was more a "Cast, run in, kill and get the hell out before your health drops" skill. This was changed when they made it wrap. So, I do think the skill kind of does what it was intended to do, the only problem is, it's grossly overabused, also by me. To quote someone from a previous thread "Anet baked the cake, all we had to do was eat it."

ensoriki · Mar 20, 2011, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Shadow form became a problem when it became infinite, before that nobody was using it except for Sliver farming with Shadow of Haste & recall.
Shadow form never needed to be changed to begin with look at the PvP version...the real version.

Bright Star Shine · Mar 21, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Shadow form became a problem when it became infinite, before that nobody was using it except for Sliver farming with Shadow of Haste & recall.
Shadow form never needed to be changed to begin with look at the PvP version...the real version.

I was there when it was changed.. And if it wasn't needed to be changed, I wonder why Anet did it.

Kaleban · Mar 21, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

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Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Missing the point...

The OPs post and this thread isn't about your pet builds, what you CAN do with the Sin, what overpowered or underpowered builds are or are not available or any of the stuff you keep bringing up as counter-examples of what the Sin is capable of.

In fact, telling us what the Sin can do is the exact opposite of the point the OP was trying to get across.

The Sin does not play like a Sin. Period. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face, but the simple fact is, the Sin was designed to be a Naruto/Ninja/Stealth Killer type. Yes, because of the engine, certain things like Bazillion Summoning jutsus aren't possible, but that's besides the point. From the first day of Factions, the Assassin was designed to be a fast in, fast out killer.

With an average 20 second recharge on most Shadowsteps, this style of gameplay is difficult to impossible, unless making use of AP or AoS. The Sin as it is NOW is split between SF-Tanking and squishy warrior dual wielding. This prevents the Sin from being able to warp to a target, blast it down and warp out in rapid succession, i.e. rapid fire target switching which is necessary in both PvE and PvP to play like the Sin was originally envisioned. The whole concept of shadowsteps was to mitigate the low armor, but one way steps and high recharges basically kill that idea.

And before you respond to play AP-problem solved, that would be one build and not the profession itself, which is what the whole thread is about. Plus that kind of argument is foolish anyways, as it ignores both the problem and potential solutions which are up for discussion.

I guess we should ask WHY you're so opposed to discussion of possibly making the Sin better, its not like talking about it is going to crush the game out of existence is it?

Swingline · Mar 21, 2011, 08:38 AM // 08:38

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With an average 20 second recharge on most Shadowsteps, this style of gameplay is difficult to impossible

Thats because all shadowsteps do something besides just shadowstepping to a target. The only one that seems remotely spammable is scorpion wire. 100' in the game is not that far, if you kill something in 2 seconds and shadowstep to an ally it doesnt take much time at all to get 100' away, shadowstep to the next mob and kill.

saint666 · Mar 21, 2011, 09:44 PM // 21:44

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Originally Posted by Swingline

Thats because all shadowsteps do something besides just shadowstepping to a target. The only one that seems remotely spammable is scorpion wire. 100' in the game is not that far, if you kill something in 2 seconds and shadowstep to an ally it doesnt take much time at all to get 100' away, shadowstep to the next mob and kill.

Secondary effects on shadow steps are pretty useless in pve, whats slow target for 8 seconds going do? scorpion wire? that's a joke skill, you'd probably end up killing yourself pretending to be naruto.

Shadow Sanctuary is pretty useless as of now, the only use is for runners, permas or casters. A change like this allows you to use all the long recharge attack skills as well as giving you positional control in pve without having to change each and every skill.

Shadow Sanctuary
Enchantment spell
-1 upkeep
5 energy
1/4 activation

When you cast Shadow Sanctuary, Shadow Step to target foe. When you stop maintaining Shadow Sanctuary you return to your original location and your critical strikes, dagger mastery and deadly arts skills that take more than 5 seconds to recharge are recharged instantly. You attack 33% faster while under the effects of Shadow Sanctuary.

ensoriki · Mar 21, 2011, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

I was there when it was changed.. And if it wasn't needed to be changed, I wonder why Anet did it.

Because they wanted to keep infinite shadow form and reduce it's effectiveness.
Anet's clearly been smoking some trees during some of their updates.

reaper with no name · Mar 24, 2011, 07:45 AM // 07:45

...

Assassins are one of the most powerful professions in PvE.

Daggers are the best source of single target damage in the game. They are also the perfect vehicle for physical buffs.

Critical Strikes is one of the most overpowered primary attributes in the game. Even now, assassins have the innate energy management to pull off Pious Spam builds.

Shadow. Form.

/notsigned